Molded, Reverse Engineered, Handshaped by One Only...WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO YOU?

SMUKES

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2009
3,288
1,489
USA California
Totally unethical but I can hear it now... "PeOplE hAvE ALwaYS cOpIEd oTHeR PeoPLeS bOrBs" etc... the difference being the effortless ripping off via binary code if anyone is WOnDeRiNg.
 

Sax-son

Well-Known Member
Nov 23, 2019
1,081
1,216
Three Rivers, CA
Sax....how would the shaper you are approaching know that you have any clue what you are asking for? Will you have a way to evaluate whether the results in any way come close to an original Performer or Spoon? I doubt many surfers could. Do you even own a rocker stick to compare one essential aspect. The whole assumption seems very odd to me.

If you are taking an original and saying “scan this and make me one”. Maybe I understand.
In this particular case, I know what those boards are because I rode a bunch of them over the years. For me personally, I have trusted the shapers I used and they would not have taken on the job if they didn't know what they were doing. I had that much faith in them and I was rarely let down. I know at least a half dozen shapers right off the top of my head that know those boards inside and out. As far a using someone I have not had experience with? That could be a different story. That is a situation where you have to do your homework first and get feedback on their reputations.

I once tried to get Greg Liddle to shape me a 9'8" Yater Spoon replica. At that time, shapers were just starting to do longboards again. Greg turned me down because the Clark Foam longboard blanks at that time had a strange rocker profile. Greg knew that he could not build me a board that size because he felt that it wouldn't be specification correct nor would it be right for him to take on the job. He said he could build me a 9'0" but not a 9' 8". Although disappointed, I always admired him for that and I felt he had my best interests at heart. I could have been taken advantage of by a different shaper, but not him.
 

Proper_Mode

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2016
1,072
725
USA California
I work with high end 3d scanners - not cheap systems or smartphone technology. These are used in aerospace manufacturing. I would love to try and work out a scanning project with something interesting engineering or manufacturing wise.

Feel free to message me if interested.

no I won’t do your reverse engineering so you don’t have to wait 10 months for a vaquero.

But there are a potential applications for all kinds of water craft and accessories that might make sense.
 

Latte

Active Member
Sep 2, 2008
455
72
USA, near the witches
I used to be dead set against popouts....Like nope not for me.

At this point in time, I don't care enough anymore.

There are really no popouts anyway that I even prefer the dimensions (or I should say just a couple).

I'm all for the craftsman / artisan...I hope to see more vacuum sealed boards that can take a beating in the future by shapers like the Core Vac by Cannibal.
 

Niau

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2020
484
760
Necarney City
I used to be dead set against popouts....Like nope not for me.

At this point in time, I don't care enough anymore.

There are really no popouts anyway that I even prefer the dimensions (or I should say just a couple).

I'm all for the craftsman / artisan...I hope to see more vacuum sealed boards that can take a beating in the future by shapers like the Core Vac by Cannibal.
I don't know why vacuum bagging isn't used more. It's pretty simple and affordable, I would think. Results in stronger, more consistent laminations (and flex?) possibly reduced waste. Anyone familiar with the plus and minus of this glassing approach?
 

Ricksurfin

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2019
2,154
3,991
San Clemente, CA
I used to be against pop outs as well, and I’ve supported the hand shape industry for a long time and will continue to do so.
That said, I can’t seem to get off my Surftech Takayama Prince Kuhio as it’s the most fun board I’ve ever ridden in the twilight of my surfing time here on earth, and when it gets over 4’, I break out the Parallax.
I just want to smile, and whatever makes that happen I’m good with.
 

shapewright

Well-Known Member
Aug 6, 2006
1,018
1,281
USA California
Whoever you take a Weber (or somebody else's board for that matter) and they will scan it is uh, pretty unethical.

But I'm sure there are people out there that won't bat an eye at that, whether it's a Performer, a C.I., DHD, or one of mine....... which I was told someone in Australia already did.
Before moving back to San Diego an east coaster bought a used machine, he promptly scanned Lost, Rusty, CI popular short board models. That’s wrong, I’ve had to give potential customers the walk sign, especially when asking for a DT in the Pink or a neck beard, “ I’m not Donald or Al”, get one of theirs.
I finished thousands of machine cuts while Channin was still active, Greg Nolls, Hansen’s, Surfboards Hawaii, Channin, never enough shaping rooms or shapers to fill the bays like in the hey days.
Matt Calvani with the machine accurately reproduces each model at their shop, same with the other companies.
In the 60’s each shaper did the models, but each had a personal tweak they added.
The machine is just a tool, scanning someone else’s work is just plain wrong, I don’t know what Bruce went through during the learning phase, but I was browbeat by experienced shapers until I became good at my craft, Gene went through the same gauntlet.
We learned to be competent craftsmen, hand built or finishers
 

Bruce Fowler

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2018
1,438
2,509
California
So in reading the last several comments, maybe we have to ask what constitutes a "pop out"?
Is it Reynolds Yater using milled/machined blanks of his Yater Spoons? Or is a pop out a Firewire or Surftech?

The different methods of making a surfboard now widely available upon us include vacuum bagging which largely came over from sailboard production. As one of the main custom sailboard shapers in the 1980's, I saw how the sport of windsurfing & the industry evolved. I was building the "Ferraris" with other guys like Bruce Jones, Ed Angulo, the Naish family, Craig Maisonville, Bob Dill, Eric Voight, Gary Swanson, Dave Johnson, Jon Price, Topper, and Steve Seebold.

The heavy, flimsy rotomolded "Windsurfers" that pounded & vibrated in anything over 3 knots served the purpose of getting people started in a sport that had many false starts before people in the skiing industry got involved and told Hoyle & Schweitzer "you're never going to attract people to buy into the sport when all they see is Mike Waltze jumping a wave in "Surfer Magazine". Sure, people think wow, bitchen, but I could never do that"

They knew what they were talking about. I was an active snow skier, and I might not have ever gotten into the sport had these same people not have the insight to attract throngs of new snow skiers thru a learning program they introduced known as "GLM" aka "Graduated Length Method".

Accomplished skiers HATED "GLM" because rhe shorter, easier to learn on skis cut the mountain up hideously.
Their only refuge was to ski the advanced runs that Beginner & Intermediates wouldn't dare to tackle until later.

Their influence sent Hoyle & Schweitzer back to Con, who created their first Windsurfers per their design. As two surfing engineers working in Long Beach, they arrived upon creating a board that they could affix a sail to when they got off work and the surf was blown out. The new beginner board was much wider with a very stable bottom they named a "Star" board which instilled confidence for beginners. The ski influence also brought in a certification program like they offered at the ski resorts for instructors giving lessons. They built "simulators" on the sand that you would have a section of board with the universal, mast, and sail to reckon with while instructors guided you what to do.

Windsurfing had so many false starts. I'm sure some of you still remember those little quarter page ads "Ride a Windsurfer" in "Surfer Magazine"? What caused the sport to finally catalyze in the United States was when a friend of H&S that lived in France, said "let me see what I can do with it here in Europe".

It went bonkers, it wasn't long before everyone was windsurf ing Europe. I remember interviewing Warren Miller for his newest Ski Movie, and when I called him up, he had just come in from windsurfing. He told me "while filming my new movie, I saw 5,000 people windsurfing a lake in Switzerland...".

Maybe that one time Canadian hockey player looking for a revenue stream and hooking up with a Taiwanese factory owner to create Wavestorm is synonymous with the Windsurfer story, at least in part.

I mean, surfing was already here, but was the sport in decline as kids started getting into sooo many other activities, or did Morey's Boogie Board pave the ways to those hideous low performance Morey Doyles, then improved Mason & Smith's and eventually to Wavestorm and beyond?

As a designer I look at it as a means to an end. Different materials and methods of construction are merely details surrounding the means to an end. Or are they? If there is a subculture or segment of our society actively making a living or some kind of gainful employment from producing the sports equipment we consider & prescribe to, how responsible are we in the choices we make and reinforce through our patronage?

The history and road traveled by Windsurfer, Morey Boogie, Wavestorm, as well as Surftech and eventually Firewire maybe provide a road map as to what we should expect. I shaped prototype sailboards for some of the larger sailboard companies..... was paid really well for it, but by 1988 they started having me paint the team riders boards all white or with the same color graphics as their pop out models. The pop outs were getting progressively lighter and stiffer as each year passed, and it became clear that the big boys were getting ready to eclipse us custom builders with their new improved product line which they could dominate the magazines with their big budget advertising clout.

The last morning I did anything for one of those companies, I went into my shop, "The Surfing Underground", shaped the last two prototypes they had contracted me to do, then left by noon because the wind was up at Jalama. I had tried (again) to negotiate royalties on the designs which they politely refused me (once again) but did honor our deal of paying me $2500 per design.

Sometimes when you hit an end, it's just a new beginning.
 
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Bruce Fowler

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2018
1,438
2,509
California
Before moving back to San Diego an east coaster bought a used machine, he promptly scanned Lost, Rusty, CI popular short board models. That’s wrong, I’ve had to give potential customers the walk sign, especially when asking for a DT in the Pink or a neck beard, “ I’m not Donald or Al”, get one of theirs.
I finished thousands of machine cuts while Channin was still active, Greg Nolls, Hansen’s, Surfboards Hawaii, Channin, never enough shaping rooms or shapers to fill the bays like in the hey days.
Matt Calvani with the machine accurately reproduces each model at their shop, same with the other companies.
In the 60’s each shaper did the models, but each had a personal tweak they added.
The machine is just a tool, scanning someone else’s work is just plain wrong, I don’t know what Bruce went through during the learning phase, but I was browbeat by experienced shapers until I became good at my craft, Gene went through the same gauntlet.
We learned to be competent craftsmen, hand built or finishers
Thank you for sharing that.

To answer what "you don't know what I went thru".

Like Al Merrick, I am totally self taught as a shaper.

As a kid, I still had it in me that making a surfboard was a creative pursuit and I wanted my 'art' to be original.
Plus I was born & grew up in Santa Barbara, and it wasn't like I could easily go get mentored by Yater or someone else in town. There weren't a lot of guys making boards anyway: Yater, Jeff White & Brian Bradley (Owl), John Eichert, and a smidge later, Doug Roth. There was also some guy making hideous pop outs called "Borm" in the old lemon factory that one day Haakenson would inhabit and glass all the Channel Islands during Merrick's meteoric rise to fame.

I used battens (flexible strips of wood) after plotting my points the full length of a blank of what I thought a good surfboard outline should look like. I anchored it in the best way I could to hold the curve then scribed it with a carpenter's pencil. Then I cut out the blank. After a few tries, I got something that was less than horrible, and my dad bought me some masonite or whatever it was for me to trace my curve creating my first template.

Forget even knowing anything about rocker or a rocker stick, contour calipers for rails, or even hearing of a power planer. It was surform, sanding block, and block planes all the way baby! (Probably a good way to learn when I think back. "Always block your work". ;-)

Later on, when I got into repairing everybody's surfboards instead of getting zits from laboring over French fry baskets at some greasy spoon, I started my first pragmatic move of ripping off good shapers outlines by tracing their work so I would have some good "templates".

I learned by emulation.

I copied the stuff I rode that worked good.

My biggest influence was when I rode John Bradbury's "Creative Freedom" surfboards and he was like a GOD in Santa Barbara and surrounding areas.

He had come from Yater, who called JB "the best glasser I ever had". In those early days, I rode Owl's (including. a7'11" V bottom shaped by Tom Hale), a 7'4" Yater "Pocket Rocket" and many magic JB's...... this was after growing up on a busted up Greg Noll that was given to me after flying off a car and getting 50-60 dings, a broken off nose and no skeg. I shaped, well, reshaped what had been a primo 10'2" into my first 8'2" BF sled. I followed that board w/a Xmas Doug Roth & Yater's & eventually a Hobie that I bought in Santa Cruz. They told me it was a Hobie Lightweight - it had three 1/4" Balsa Stringers with Black Glue 6" apart, was super white because it had this glass they called "Silane". Removable skeg with big bolt thru the deck. It only weighed 23 lbs! It was a "Semi Speed Shape" some guy named Dick Brewer shaped it. I had a good eye, even back then).

Back to my first shape, I was eight years old, it was 1959, and my mom took my brother & I to a fabric store because we didn't know where to get fiberglass or resin. The guy sold us this light brown stuff and said in his Oklahoma accent "yp, uh yeah, I think this is fiberglass, either way it'll work.... oh, as far as resin, that's easy, just go up a block on the other side of the street you'll see "Pep Boys", they sell repair kits for these guys fixing their Corvettes, those cars are made out of fiberglass. So we scored big time at Pep Boys and when we told the sales guy how many holes the thing had, he sold us "the BIG can" of Bondo.

My brother made a laminated wood skeg in his 8th grade woodshop at school. It turned out really good and he admitted his shop teacher did more of it than he did. We figured out how to sink the thing into the board, and we were done!

Except the thing looked like a hideous zebra or giraffe so my dad, who had worked for Fuller Paint suggested we pick a color and he bought some enamel and loaned us one of his good paint brushes as long as we promised to clean it good. We painted everything except the fin, because it was the best thing about the whole board.

I got my first right slide at the "Sand bar" aka SB Sandspit at the harbor. After riding the soup straight in all the time, I accidentally took off at an angle and leaned (or maybe I was falling) into the wave face. I felt like I WAS GOING A MILLION MILES AN HOUR and was hooked ever since!

After the summer, it was back to school. I sold my board to a friend for $8 and it broke into three pieces the first time he rode it.

Why did I stay with surfing?

I think it was by the time I got to junior high school and the thing was to peroxide your hair. I did that, but that made me even more of a target for the upper classman because I lived on a ranch in the mountains above Santa Barbara. So that became a reason for all these older guys to name me "hillbilly surfer" screaming at me when they saw me in the halls between classes "HEY! DO YOU SURF!!!???" Then they would all laugh, or get a buddy to bump into me, push my books out of my hands......

ALL THAT BULLYING JUST GAVE ME MORE DRIVE TO BECOME SOMETHING BETTER THAN THEM.
 
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