pierpont-scott wrote: I'd think that's pretty stressful, too though. Say you're a shaper who makes a plug. You do your best, based on 25,000 boards under your belt. But unfortunately, you don't know jack about how a full-PVC shell is going to flex (or not) or how fast it'll rebound, or how your custom rocker will chatter when it loses 8 lbs. So now a pop-out factory makes 1000 of these things because you have a 'good' name. And they hit the shops. And guys buy them because they know your work is good. But the boards suck. Can't develop momentum, don't noseride, make noises like being in the cabin of a cheap sailboat. If you have done a little experimenting, you might have a couple of your shop guys or teamriders saying, "Gee...this thing isn't that great." But no - you went for the brass ring and now you have 1000 people saying your board sucks. Face it - no matter who builds them, the shaper who puts his name on them is going to get the credit or the cirticism. I don't really blame the shapers. Especially when they see it like Rich does - as an entry-level tool to get people hooked on the brand. But when people start trying to sell the performance or the environmental benefits, I call BS. And when shapers get dollar eyes and jump in without understanding what the tech is going to do to their shapes, they get what they deserve.